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[♪♪♪]
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[Penelope Spheeris]:
Punk was born in the late '60s.
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It has lived this whole time,
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and it will live forever,
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so anybody that says, "Punk is dead,"
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that's the stupidest thing
I've ever heard.
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Punk rock is dead.
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[Keith Morris]:
Punk's never been dead.
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That's a misnomer.
Punk is not dead.
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How can it be dead when I'm still here?
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Punk rock is the future for all of us.
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In the '60s,
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you had a lot of the
short-lived cultural moments
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like folk rock,
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and acid rock,
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so naturally when you had punk rock,
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there was an expectation
that it would die.
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[Vinnie Stigma]:
Punk will never die.
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There will always be somebody,
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there will always be some band...
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Because there will always be
some angry kid in his bedroom...
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Screaming, "Fuck you, Mom," you know?
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"Fuck you, Ma.
Fuck you, Mom,"
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and, you know, that, to me,
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is as punk as anything, you know?
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God bless 'em.
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[♪♪♪]
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I'm Iggy Pop.
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Detroit...
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home of nearly 2,000,000 people.
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Yes, Detroit is enjoying
its finest hour.
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[Pop]:
Growing up in Michigan,
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people who met me when I was young
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assumed I was a rich kid,
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partly 'cause I was cocky,
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and partly because
I got so much attention
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and support at home from my parents
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for anything I wanted to do,
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including learning to play the drums,
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which was a big hassle for them
in a little tiny trailer home...
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[chuckling]
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This big kit of drums
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that I'm just bashing on it
all the time,
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and I had a huge radio, and...
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a Zenith,
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and I would listen
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to "You Really Got Me" by The Kinks
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in my little bed,
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with the covers pulled up over my head,
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like, when it was past my bedtime.
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You'd have to wait through
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the other 39 songs on the Top 40,
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which were all shitty,
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and then suddenly
you heard this sound, this...
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[singing guitar riff]
♪ Ah-na-na-na ♪
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♪ Ah-na-na-na ♪
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bonk,
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and it was this ripping,
tearing sound of the guitar,
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and the vocal, it didn't sound kosher,
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or manly, or anything.
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It was like, "Girl,
you really got me now."
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It sounded like life
in the Industrial Age.
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You were free of the blues,
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you were free of Perry Como,
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you were free of Mom and Dad.
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You were dangerous,
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and, uh...
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you turned into a little monster.
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[♪♪♪]
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...but, uh, to continue
a self-investigation
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of how I turned into a punk,
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and how this attitude emerged,
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it had a lot to do also with the MC5
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and their manager, John Sinclair.
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[♪♪♪]
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The MC5 were pushing a harder attitude,
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and they were a big influence.
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[Wayne Kramer]:
We were part of a generation
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that rejected grown-up ideas
about things,
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and we had to do something,
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because the grown-ups
were fucking this up big time.
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The MC5 was born in a time
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where we had a criminal
in the White House
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with utter contempt
for the rule of law...
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Well, I'm not a crook.
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[Kramer]: Millions
and millions of Americans
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protested the war in Vietnam.
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Millions of Americans participated
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in civil rights marches
across the country,
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and we felt, being in a rock band,
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we were perfectly positioned
to help move us forward.
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We got a call from the Yippies,
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Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
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They were going to have
a counter-festival
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to the Democratic convention,
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and we were going to join
with other bands
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from all over the country
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to present a unified front
to the Democrats,
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and show them that young people
wanted the war to end,
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so we went out to Chicago
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and discovered
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that none of the other bands showed up.
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[chuckling]
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They actually had
more sense than we did,
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because they knew
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the Chicago police
were waiting for them,
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and it was tense.
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People weren't smiling,
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and the Chicago police
were harassing the crowd,
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and there were agents provocateurs
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starting fights with guys,
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and it was very heavy vibes.
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So we set up out on the ground, and...
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and played our show.
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[voice into microphone]
Right now...
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Right now...
Right now, it's time to...
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[crowd cheering]
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♪ Kick out the jams,
motherfuckers! ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ Yeah! ♪
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♪ I, I, I, I... ♪
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♪ I'm gonna ♪
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♪ I'm gonna kick 'em out! ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ Yeah! ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ Well, I feel pretty good ♪
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♪ and I guess that I could
get crazy now, baby... ♪
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[Sylvain Sylvain]:
I love that.
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"Kick out the jams,
motherfuckers."
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Well, that's...
that's the MC5 at their best.
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That's Detroit.
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"People, we gotta rise up."
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It's as good as rock 'n' roll gets.
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It's the promise of rock 'n' roll.
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It liberates you.
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What they did with music
was a life-changer for me.
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So then I got "Kick Out the Jams,"
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and that just completely
changed my life.
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"This is what I like."
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[crowd cheering]
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[Kramer]:
So we finished our set,
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and the Chicago Police
Department demonstrated
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how they treat people
that they disagree with
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by beating American kids
on national television,
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and it was... it was ugly.
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It was a bad scene,
and all of America saw it.
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[Pop]:
Wayne Kramer tells me,
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and I don't remember,
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that at one point they tried
to recruit me as a drummer
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when I was a drummer,
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and that I turned 'em down.
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I don't know if that's true or not,
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because I just have no memory,
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which is interesting.
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And I heard about this drummer,
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his name was Jim Osterberg,
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and everybody said, "Man,
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you've got to hear this guy play.
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He can really play,"
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and I'll be damned,
he really could play.
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I mean, he was...
he was a terrific drummer.
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The band was called
the Prime Movers Blues Band,
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and they had this kid on drums,
and he was terrific.
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I talked to him about it,
but he said he didn't...
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He was thinking about
not playing drums anymore.
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He had something else he wanted to do,
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and he played with
some blues artists in Chicago,
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and one night
he took some acid on the gig,
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and he had a vision...
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[echoing]
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...and the vision was
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that he didn't need to be playing drums
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for these old blues artists.
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He needed to be up front,
singing his own blues.
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And I realized
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I wasn't going to be
a blues drummer all my life,
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and I needed to bring the blues
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to suburban juvenile delinquency,
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and I knew just the guys to do it.
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There were a number of
delinquent high school students
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who used to congregate
in the campus business district
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when they were supposed to be in school.
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One of the kids was Ron Asheton,
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and he looked vaguely ill all the time.
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He was very pale.
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The hair was definitely
too long for high school,
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and across the street,
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this Elvis-looking character
used to stand there,
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smoking cigarettes,
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and just giving dirty looks
to everybody that walked by,
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and that was his brother, Scott.
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They were just a couple of guys
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who looked like they weren't
doing much of anything,
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and never were gonna,
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and I convinced the two of them
to be my band,
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and then we brought in
their friend Dave,
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who had a bass, and a car,
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and an amp,
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which was very typical of bands
in those days,
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and the Doors,
who had their first album out,
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were going to play the homecoming dance,
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and the homecoming dance
is a big deal in college.
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You know, jocks invite
their girlfriends,
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and they get a corsage and everything,
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and they go,
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so they hired the Doors,
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probably thinking they were going to get
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♪ Come on, baby
light my fire ♪
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you know, but instead...
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you know, they got this guy
just wasted on LSD
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fronting a band
that really couldn't rock.
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They didn't know how
to balance their amplifiers,
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the sound was terrible,
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and I loved it.
[laughing]
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I thought, "If these people,
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who have a number-one song out
and a professional album
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and a big gig like this,
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can do that,
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well, fuck, what excuse have I got?
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I have no excuse."
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[♪♪♪]
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...and I stopped singing
about little mice and rainbows,
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and I started singing
about having nothing to do,
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and no fun, and, uh...
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uh, you know, animal sex and whatever.
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[♪♪♪]
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No one on Earth played that way
at that time.
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Only us.
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Nobody rocked as hard as us.
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Nobody.
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♪ So messed up ♪
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♪ I want you here ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ In my room
I want you here ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ Now we're gonna be
face to face ♪
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[♪♪♪]
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♪ And I'll lay right down
in my favorite place ♪
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People did not know
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what to make of The Stooges
in the beginning,
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which I took as a good sign.
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For me, The Stooges is, like, the band.
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You know, the Ashetons, man,
those guys had deep groove,
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and Iggy is probably
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the greatest front man of all time.
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Iggy, to me, is awesome rock 'n' roll,
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but, you know, accessible,
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not slick.
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Everybody in the world
has covered this song.
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I cover it myself.
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I end with it sometimes,
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get on the floor and bark like a dog,
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raise my leg up,
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pretend to pee on somebody's leg.
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The national anthem of punk rock,
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and this was before there was
the word "punk rock."
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It's 1968.
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00:12:01,130 --> 00:12:03,190
Iggy is the godfather of punk.
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I mean, come on, you know?
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The Stooges were
a taste of what was to come.
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[Pop]: When I got to New York
with The Stooges in '69,
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it was a very dark and downtrodden area.
264
00:12:23,210 --> 00:12:29,100
If you sat on a park bench there
for more than 15 minutes,
265
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,050
somebody would offer you drugs,
or sex, or both.
266
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:38,050
New York City was so damaged.
267
00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:40,140
It looked like Dresden
after the firestorm.
268
00:12:42,130 --> 00:12:45,050
You know, it was like walking
into this giant movie set
269
00:12:45,070 --> 00:12:49,000
where you could invent
how you wanted to be.
270
00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:50,080
You could reinvent yourself,
271
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:51,230
and that was kind of cool,
272
00:12:52,010 --> 00:12:54,040
because all these movements
from the '60s
273
00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:56,070
that were coming to a head, you know,
274
00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:59,110
like the gay rights movement,
and the women's rights movement,
275
00:12:59,130 --> 00:13:01,120
you know, just everything,
276
00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:04,230
so no one knew exactly
what the rules were anymore,
277
00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:08,210
so it was kind of, like,
time to make up new rules.
278
00:13:10,010 --> 00:13:11,160
[Bob Gruen]:
But in New York City,
279
00:13:11,180 --> 00:13:13,050
there was no money.
280
00:13:13,070 --> 00:13:16,140
There was a lot of empty storefronts,
281
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,050
and it started to kind of grow
282
00:13:18,070 --> 00:13:21,040
as a community of musicians and artists,
283
00:13:21,060 --> 00:13:22,140
and a lot of people started bands,
284
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,080
not for the idea of becoming famous,
285
00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,220
but for the idea of playing
mostly for your friends,
286
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,090
maybe getting some free drinks,
287
00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:30,130
maybe meeting some girls.
288
00:13:30,150 --> 00:13:33,090
It really wasn't a commercial time,
289
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:35,090
because those kind of opportunities
290
00:13:35,110 --> 00:13:36,130
seemed too far away.
291
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:39,040
[♪♪♪]
292
00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:45,050
[Sylvain]:
Me and Billy Murcia,
293
00:13:45,070 --> 00:13:47,090
who was the first drummer
in the New York Dolls,
294
00:13:47,110 --> 00:13:51,090
we started making clothes,
you know, to survive
295
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:52,100
and to make a living,
296
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,030
and we were all going
to the same high school,
297
00:13:56,050 --> 00:14:00,020
and one day I'm in the lunchroom,
298
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,100
and I keep on seeing this guy.
299
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,210
He's always surrounded by girls, man.
300
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:07,010
He was like a fish magnet,
this cat, you know,
301
00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:09,020
and I'm going,
"Who the hell this guy is?"
302
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,210
and I find out his name
is Giovanni Genzale,
303
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:14,230
which was way too, you know,
304
00:14:15,010 --> 00:14:17,060
too colorful for me
to actually call him that,
305
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,060
and I said, "Man,
306
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,050
we should get this guy
in our band, you know,
307
00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:23,100
because maybe then we can
have chicks too, you know?"
308
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,180
[laughing]
309
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,140
So I ask him.
310
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,120
I said, "Hey, man,
311
00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:30,010
you want to play with me and Billy, man?
312
00:14:30,030 --> 00:14:31,030
We've got a band and stuff,"
313
00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:32,170
and all of a sudden he said, "Nah,
314
00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:33,170
I don't know how to play.
315
00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:35,050
I don't want to play," you know.
316
00:14:35,070 --> 00:14:37,170
A couple weeks later,
or maybe even a week later,
317
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:39,080
I see him again at the lunchroom.
318
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,100
This time, he comes up to me,
and he says, "Hey, Sylvain,
319
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,220
how many strings
does a guitar have?"
320
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,230
I said, "Six."
321
00:14:47,010 --> 00:14:49,140
[♪♪♪]
322
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,110
He goes, "Hmm."
323
00:14:51,130 --> 00:14:52,100
He says, "Sylvain,
324
00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,200
how many strings
does a bass guitar have?"
325
00:14:54,220 --> 00:14:55,180
I said, "Four."
326
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,110
[♪♪♪]
327
00:14:58,130 --> 00:14:59,150
He said, "Sylvain,
328
00:14:59,170 --> 00:15:01,070
I'm your fuckin' bass player."
329
00:15:01,090 --> 00:15:03,020
[chuckling]
330
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,180
And that was it.
That's how he started.
331
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,190
♪ You're the prima ballerina ♪
332
00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:11,160
♪ On the spring afternoon ♪
333
00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:16,140
♪ Change on into the wolfman
howlin' at the moon ♪
334
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,010
♪ Awoo! ♪
335
00:15:18,030 --> 00:15:20,160
♪ You got
a personality crisis ♪
336
00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:23,070
♪ You got it while it was hot ♪
337
00:15:23,090 --> 00:15:24,060
♪ It's always hard to know ♪
338
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,070
♪ The frustration
and heartache... ♪
339
00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:28,190
[Sylvain]: When we first
started playing together,
340
00:15:28,210 --> 00:15:30,090
I would go to England
341
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:32,030
and shop for all those cool shoes,
342
00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:36,030
and those platform boots that they had.
343
00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:39,230
The Kensington Market
was a really cool place,
344
00:15:40,010 --> 00:15:42,080
and, of course, the King's Road,
345
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:44,170
you know, glitter and all that stuff
346
00:15:44,190 --> 00:15:45,170
was really big.
347
00:15:45,190 --> 00:15:47,080
Marc Bolan, my favorite,
348
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,040
I don't care what
you're going to call him,
349
00:15:49,060 --> 00:15:54,030
but to me, being onstage,
350
00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:56,070
or being a performer,
351
00:15:56,090 --> 00:15:58,190
I have the mentality
of putting on a show,
352
00:15:58,210 --> 00:16:00,080
like the "Little Rascals."
353
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,130
It's like, "Man, we're bored.
354
00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:03,060
What are we going to do?"
355
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:04,100
"Well, let's put on our show."
356
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,220
"Well, where are we going
to get the curtain,
357
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,210
you know, for the stage?"
358
00:16:08,230 --> 00:16:10,090
"Oh, my mother's bedsheet."
359
00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:11,050
"Okay, good."
360
00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:13,020
"How about the makeup?"
"Okay..."
361
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,010
In our case, it was we'd go
to our girlfriends' bags.
362
00:16:16,030 --> 00:16:19,040
They got more makeup
than Bloomingdale's.
363
00:16:19,060 --> 00:16:23,000
It wasn't, like,
trying to be androgynous,
364
00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:24,080
but yet we were.
365
00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:27,010
I mean, you know, for years
366
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:29,090
it was the girls' clothes fit me better
367
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:31,010
than the guys' clothes, you know?
368
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:33,120
I don't know why.
369
00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:37,010
So that's how we started,
like, putting things together.
370
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:39,010
It was like, "Okay, we've got
to make our own stuff,"
371
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:40,710
and we're grabbing
our girlfriends' clothes
372
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,030
and putting it on,
373
00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:45,010
and their makeup, and, you know,
"let's put on a show."
374
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:48,070
[♪♪♪]
375
00:16:48,090 --> 00:16:52,060
[Gruen]: It was just like
a visual circus
376
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,130
with, you know, attitude,
377
00:16:54,150 --> 00:16:59,050
and hair, and makeup,
and heels, and feathers,
378
00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:00,190
but we were afraid of that, you know,
379
00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:02,050
and so I think they played on it
380
00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:03,130
because people were afraid of it.
381
00:17:03,150 --> 00:17:05,050
It kind of helped them get in the news,
382
00:17:05,070 --> 00:17:07,060
and at the time, David Bowie
383
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:08,100
and some of the other English acts,
384
00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:11,020
they asked them if they were,
you know, homosexual,
385
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,160
and they said they were bisexual,
386
00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:14,210
so they asked David Johansen
if he was bisexual,
387
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:16,020
he said, "No, we're trisexual.
388
00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:17,130
We'll try anything."
389
00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:20,080
[crowd cheering]
390
00:17:24,020 --> 00:17:25,060
[Jayne County]: The first time
I saw the Dolls,
391
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,020
I kind of like, was kind of,
392
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,000
"Oh my god, they're beating me
to the punch."
393
00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,110
They beat me to the punch
394
00:17:30,130 --> 00:17:32,200
doing what they were doing, you know?
395
00:17:34,010 --> 00:17:36,020
The Dolls weren't really transgender.
396
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,000
They were all straight guys, really,
397
00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:39,190
just putting on some women's clothes
398
00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:41,230
and wearing lipstick and makeup,
399
00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:44,100
but none of them were gay.
400
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:47,020
A lot of people thought
the Dolls were doing it
401
00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,060
just to get attention,
402
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,140
but it was the thing to do at the time.
403
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,110
It was more like blurring
the sexes together, really.
404
00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:57,070
It was a very
androgynous scene, you know,
405
00:17:57,090 --> 00:17:58,650
and then you had David Bowie happening,
406
00:17:59,010 --> 00:18:01,100
which was a very androgynous thing.
407
00:18:01,120 --> 00:18:04,030
It was kind of a mixture
of male and female
408
00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:05,190
kind of thrown together.
409
00:18:05,210 --> 00:18:09,110
The gay liberation people
were very upset with the Dolls.
410
00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:11,010
They were calling them transvestites
411
00:18:11,030 --> 00:18:12,030
back in the days
412
00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:15,010
where people called it
"female impersonation."
413
00:18:15,030 --> 00:18:17,150
You had to call it that,
or you'd be arrested.
414
00:18:17,170 --> 00:18:20,200
I also got the plug pulled on me
a couple of times.
415
00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:26,070
The first time I played NYU,
they pulled the plug on me,
416
00:18:26,090 --> 00:18:28,110
and said they weren't going to allow NYU
417
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:31,200
to be turned into
a 42nd Street smut shop.
418
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:34,080
My early shows were very graphic.
419
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,200
I used rubber dildos
that squirted out milk,
420
00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:41,070
and I used a toilet
and all kinds of props onstage.
421
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:43,150
My first band, I set out
just to shock, really.
422
00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:46,190
I just wanted to shock people
out of their normalcy.
423
00:18:46,210 --> 00:18:49,150
[♪♪♪]
424
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:59,050
♪ If you don't wanna
fuck me, baby ♪
425
00:18:59,070 --> 00:19:02,140
♪ Baby, fuck off ♪
426
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,050
[♪♪♪]
427
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:07,000
♪ If you don't wanna
fuck me, baby ♪
428
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:09,000
♪ Baby, fuck off ♪
429
00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:10,040
[County]:
Growing up in Georgia,
430
00:19:10,060 --> 00:19:13,160
I had to learn how to run,
431
00:19:13,180 --> 00:19:15,060
and run fast,
432
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,000
because I was always being
followed by cars and things,
433
00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:21,090
and people jumping out of their cars,
434
00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:22,130
wanting to beat me up and everything,
435
00:19:22,150 --> 00:19:24,210
because I was dressed so outlandish.
436
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:28,150
Silver hair, big Beatle bangs,
437
00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:29,180
high-heeled boots,
438
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,130
pinstriped trousers,
polka-dot tie, the whole bit,
439
00:19:33,150 --> 00:19:35,020
and, you know, just
prancing down the street
440
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,210
just as pretty as you can be, you know?
441
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:38,090
Then, all of a sudden,
442
00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:41,050
you'd hear someone
yell out from their car,
443
00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:43,190
"You fuckin' Ringo!"
or "Fuckin' queer!"
444
00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:44,210
whatever like that, you know,
445
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:47,010
and it was like
if you were with your friends,
446
00:19:47,030 --> 00:19:48,390
you'd go, "Okay, it's time to run.
447
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,010
Time to run."
448
00:19:50,030 --> 00:19:53,070
[♪♪♪]
449
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:57,170
Hello.
450
00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:59,050
Well, Max's Kansas City,
451
00:19:59,070 --> 00:20:01,060
when I started hanging out there,
452
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,140
Wayne County, Jayne County,
453
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,090
was deejaying,
454
00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:09,090
and some of his band members
knew of me and my playing,
455
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:11,060
and suggested that I be in the group,
456
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,110
and it worked out,
457
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:16,070
but back then, you've got to remember,
458
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:19,060
it was 45 years ago,
459
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,080
for Wayne to do what he did,
460
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:24,020
it took a lot of balls,
461
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,190
you know, to sing about stuff
that he was singing about,
462
00:20:27,210 --> 00:20:31,090
and looking the way he did onstage.
463
00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:34,180
We played a show out in Jersey,
464
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,220
and we sent out a photo of the group
465
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,070
dressed normally,
466
00:20:39,090 --> 00:20:43,180
Wayne in a... a jean jacket,
467
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,230
a jean hat,
468
00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:46,190
looking, you know, a little normal,
469
00:20:46,210 --> 00:20:50,020
but then, when we would finish backstage
470
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:51,180
getting ready to play,
471
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,200
he would be all made up and everything,
472
00:20:53,220 --> 00:20:55,060
and the owners of the club would say,
473
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,070
"Nah, we can't have this here,"
474
00:20:58,090 --> 00:21:01,200
so, uh... they threw us out,
475
00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:03,210
and that's what it was like.
476
00:21:05,230 --> 00:21:09,030
[County]: Well, I got my name,
Wayne County,
477
00:21:09,050 --> 00:21:11,030
because Detroit is in Wayne County,
478
00:21:11,050 --> 00:21:13,030
and there's a sign that reads,
479
00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:14,120
"You are now entering Wayne County,"
480
00:21:14,140 --> 00:21:16,110
and I always thought
that was really funny,
481
00:21:16,130 --> 00:21:18,150
and I did it because of The Stooges,
482
00:21:18,170 --> 00:21:20,050
because of Iggy and The Stooges,
483
00:21:20,070 --> 00:21:22,160
and I wanted to, I guess,
484
00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:26,080
have some kind of connection to them.
485
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:28,030
You know, Iggy, he can be dangerous.
486
00:21:28,050 --> 00:21:29,080
Iggy was dangerous, you know.
487
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:32,110
He started a whole attitude,
488
00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:34,080
a whole way of looking at things.
489
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,170
He went against the grain,
and I think he won.
490
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:39,200
[♪♪♪]
491
00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:44,080
[Pop]: I sort of
started to see things
492
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:45,220
a different way.
493
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,210
There was this feeling
494
00:21:47,230 --> 00:21:49,160
that something had to happen
495
00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:52,130
that was more amazing to look at,
496
00:21:52,150 --> 00:21:54,170
more aggressive to listen to,
497
00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:58,130
and it wasn't as some sort of
a marketing plan or...
498
00:21:58,150 --> 00:22:00,040
It's just what you feel inside.
499
00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:02,010
"This is what I want to do and be.
500
00:22:02,030 --> 00:22:03,020
Look out for me.
501
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,220
Watch this..."
502
00:22:07,030 --> 00:22:10,180
...but behind every act,
503
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,060
there's almost always a key person
504
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,170
with some combination of taste,
505
00:22:18,190 --> 00:22:20,050
big balls,
506
00:22:20,070 --> 00:22:25,020
and a position in the cogs of industry,
507
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,130
and for us,
508
00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:31,110
it was a gentleman named Danny Fields.
509
00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:34,170
Danny Fields was, in effect,
510
00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:37,170
the Aandamp;R department
of Elektra Records.
511
00:22:39,130 --> 00:22:43,090
He was in Ann Arbor to see an MC5 gig
512
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:45,220
at the student union,
513
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,210
and we were opening.
514
00:22:47,230 --> 00:22:51,010
[Danny Fields]: And I went
to the student union,
515
00:22:51,030 --> 00:22:55,020
and I heard this great music,
just great music,
516
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,100
just going up the stairs,
517
00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:00,150
and there was this lunatic performer
518
00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:02,080
such as I'd never seen,
519
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:03,230
and it was Iggy Pop,
520
00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:07,140
just flopping
and dancing around up there.
521
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,020
It was a revelation.
522
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:14,070
It's like what I always wanted
a rock 'n' roll band to be,
523
00:23:14,090 --> 00:23:16,190
and so I waited for them to finish,
524
00:23:16,210 --> 00:23:20,070
and I said, "Hello,
I'm from Elektra Records,
525
00:23:20,090 --> 00:23:22,030
and I really like your band,"
526
00:23:22,050 --> 00:23:24,230
and he...
Iggy kept walking.
527
00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:29,070
He never even looked
to see who was speaking.
528
00:23:29,090 --> 00:23:31,100
And I didn't believe that...
529
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,640
he looked...
he looked too much like us
530
00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:34,190
to be anybody.
531
00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:36,110
[Fields]:
And he didn't believe
532
00:23:36,130 --> 00:23:38,120
that anybody from any record company
533
00:23:38,140 --> 00:23:42,110
could ever possibly say,
"I really liked your band,"
534
00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:46,130
that I must have been a dirty old man
535
00:23:46,150 --> 00:23:49,190
going after his flesh or something,
536
00:23:49,210 --> 00:23:53,020
but he did point to the room
where the manager was,
537
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,110
and so they were signed...
538
00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:57,070
with a phone call,
539
00:23:57,090 --> 00:24:01,010
and... everything changed.
540
00:24:02,050 --> 00:24:04,210
Let's dispel the myth
that I was their manager.
541
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:06,170
I was just kind of their babysitter.
542
00:24:06,190 --> 00:24:09,230
Every show I saw, I mean,
543
00:24:10,010 --> 00:24:13,230
I was anxious for either his safety
544
00:24:14,010 --> 00:24:16,150
or the safety of people in the audience,
545
00:24:16,170 --> 00:24:19,190
but every night, there was something.
546
00:24:19,210 --> 00:24:21,180
[news report]: He would pour
hot wax on his body,
547
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,090
cut his chest with a broken bottle,
548
00:24:24,110 --> 00:24:26,160
and smear peanut butter on himself.
549
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:30,020
There is an extraordinarily
dangerous energy
550
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,210
that these people are trying to unleash.
551
00:24:31,230 --> 00:24:34,090
[Gruen]:
And audiences didn't react
552
00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:35,160
the way they do nowadays,
553
00:24:35,180 --> 00:24:36,140
where you have a mosh pit,
554
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,120
and people go to a show
555
00:24:38,140 --> 00:24:39,540
in order to push each other around.
556
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,090
Back then, nobody touched anybody.
557
00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:43,120
I mean, you wouldn't want
somebody next to you
558
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:44,090
pushing you,
559
00:24:44,110 --> 00:24:46,140
or jumping on top, holding somebody up
560
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:47,170
and passing him around in the audience.
561
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:49,160
That was inconceivable.
562
00:24:49,180 --> 00:24:52,220
Iggy, to me, was complete freedom,
563
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,030
you know, complete
howling madman antics,
564
00:24:57,050 --> 00:24:58,160
and kind of that, you know,
565
00:24:58,180 --> 00:25:01,080
driving the car while
you're getting a blow job
566
00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:02,170
at 120 miles,
567
00:25:02,190 --> 00:25:04,100
and driving it off
the fucking cliff, you know?
568
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:07,020
That's what Iggy was to me.
569
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,170
[cymbal crash]
570
00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:09,220
Iggy was writing about,
571
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,281
"I'm a street-walking cheetah
with a heart full of napalm.
572
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,050
I'm the runaway son
of a nuclear A-bomb."
573
00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:16,170
I mean, come on,
574
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:18,090
the greatest fuckin' lyrics in the...
575
00:25:18,110 --> 00:25:19,210
Well, besides the Ramones.
576
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:30,080
[♪♪♪]
577
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,020
♪ Hey, ho! ♪
578
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,050
♪ Let's go! ♪
579
00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:43,140
♪ Hey, ho, let's go ♪
580
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,190
♪ They're forming
in a straight line ♪
581
00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:49,030
♪ They're going through
a tight wind ♪
582
00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:50,170
♪ The kids are
losing their minds ♪
583
00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:51,230
♪ Blitzkrieg bop ♪
584
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:53,150
[Clem Burke]: They were like
a perfect rock 'n' roll band.
585
00:25:53,170 --> 00:25:55,000
That's a rarity,
586
00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:56,180
and the Ramones were
one of them for sure.
587
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,070
They didn't even have a guitar solo.
588
00:25:58,090 --> 00:26:00,020
Great fuckin' groove, too.
589
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,140
Oh, I thought the Ramones were
kind of like the Beach Boys,
590
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,030
but, like, on speed.
591
00:26:04,050 --> 00:26:07,040
It was so different from everything else
592
00:26:07,060 --> 00:26:08,110
that was on the radio,
593
00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:10,190
and what people thought of as rock.
594
00:26:10,210 --> 00:26:12,150
I remember the first time
I saw them play.
595
00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:15,120
They must have played, like,
12 songs in 16 minutes.
596
00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:18,080
I mean, it was like
getting hit in the face
597
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:19,140
and then liking it.
598
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,180
[♪♪♪]
599
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,190
♪ Hey, ho, let's go! ♪
600
00:26:23,210 --> 00:26:25,120
[Gruen]: Considering the way
601
00:26:25,140 --> 00:26:27,150
that the Ramones ended up looking,
602
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:31,080
with a very severe black leather look,
603
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:32,130
all of them, everybody,
604
00:26:32,150 --> 00:26:34,140
was very influenced
by the New York Dolls,
605
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,160
and the idea that you could
just do anything,
606
00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:38,130
and you could be as bright
and as loud as you want.
607
00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:40,160
Why do you play so loud?
608
00:26:40,180 --> 00:26:41,340
We don't know.
We have... Why?
609
00:26:42,010 --> 00:26:44,030
Something makes us like it.
610
00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:46,090
We don't have any control over it.
611
00:26:46,110 --> 00:26:47,090
We play so loud,
612
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:49,080
that our amps couldn't take it,
613
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:53,160
but now we've got these amps
that they, they're really...
614
00:26:53,180 --> 00:26:56,090
They, they... work.
615
00:26:56,110 --> 00:27:01,080
The Ramones played it
a lot dumber than they were,
616
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,230
which was the brilliant thing
about the Ramones.
617
00:27:04,010 --> 00:27:08,120
You know, I finally went
to see the Dolls at Club 82,
618
00:27:08,140 --> 00:27:10,160
and I was in my sneakers,
619
00:27:10,180 --> 00:27:12,170
and t-shirt, and jeans,
620
00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:16,020
and surrounded by these guys
who looked like roosters,
621
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,040
and I was like, "It's great music,
622
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:21,000
but I wish they'd
change the clothes."
623
00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:23,010
That's why when I first saw the Ramones,
624
00:27:23,030 --> 00:27:25,210
I was like, "Wow, they play
that kind of music,
625
00:27:25,230 --> 00:27:27,050
and they dress just like me."
626
00:27:27,070 --> 00:27:29,200
[County]: I remember
seeing the Ramones,
627
00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:32,000
and thinking to myself
628
00:27:32,020 --> 00:27:34,210
they were going to become
a big local New York band.
629
00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:38,050
I didn't know outside of that
what was going to happen.
630
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:41,030
[♪♪♪]
631
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:46,170
[Fields]: The Ramones wanted
very much to be written about,
632
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:48,140
and I was the weekly
rock 'n' roll columnist
633
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,140
for the Soho News,
634
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,220
and Tommy was sort of the press agent,
635
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,160
and he called me and said,
"Hey, are you going to...
636
00:27:58,180 --> 00:28:02,060
We know you are really going to like us,
637
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:03,190
so we'd really like you
to write about us
638
00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:05,060
in the Soho News,"
639
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,160
but I thought they were
some kind of Latino band,
640
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:12,110
a cha-cha band, we called them
641
00:28:12,130 --> 00:28:15,210
in a derogatorily racially inept way,
642
00:28:15,230 --> 00:28:19,020
but, I don't know, "Ramones,"
it sounded...
643
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,110
so Spanish.
644
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:25,050
So I agreed to go see them,
645
00:28:25,070 --> 00:28:28,020
and it was great.
646
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:29,130
They were so fast.
647
00:28:29,150 --> 00:28:30,100
They looked great.
648
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,060
They were all wearing the same thing,
649
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,150
and then it was over,
650
00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:35,110
and the whole set was over
651
00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:38,180
in, I think, under 17 minutes,
652
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,140
and, as promised, I met them,
653
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,220
and I said,
654
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,110
"I'll not just write about you,
655
00:28:44,130 --> 00:28:45,140
but I'd like to be your manager,"
656
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,180
and Johnny said,
657
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,030
"Well, we need $3,000 for drums,
658
00:28:52,050 --> 00:28:55,110
so if you can get us that,
you can be our manager."
659
00:28:55,130 --> 00:29:00,030
Now, $3,000 in 1975
660
00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:02,190
is, like, a lot of money for drums.
661
00:29:02,210 --> 00:29:04,060
I don't know what drums cost,
662
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,140
and I don't know what they spent it on,
663
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,110
and I don't care,
664
00:29:08,130 --> 00:29:10,070
but I called my mother,
665
00:29:10,090 --> 00:29:13,010
and I said, "I need $3,000,"
666
00:29:13,030 --> 00:29:15,150
and she just wrote a check,
667
00:29:15,170 --> 00:29:18,230
and said, "Oh, I hope you know
what you're doing, but..."
668
00:29:19,010 --> 00:29:22,120
you know, so actually
my mother is responsible
669
00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:26,080
for launching the Ramones.
670
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:28,120
[Sylvain]: The problem was,
671
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:30,200
where are you going to play?
672
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:32,040
There was no places to play.
673
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:36,010
The places to play was
Madison Square Garden...
674
00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:36,210
[laughing]
675
00:29:36,230 --> 00:29:40,080
you know, and huge, huge places,
676
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:42,160
and, you know, some of the clubs
that was downtown,
677
00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:43,190
and things like that,
678
00:29:43,210 --> 00:29:45,200
they were having, like,
Top 40 stuff, you know?
679
00:29:45,220 --> 00:29:47,200
They weren't doing, like,
original bands.
680
00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:49,080
You're not going to do
anything like that.
681
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:52,190
[Ramone]: The only clubs,
really, around
682
00:29:52,210 --> 00:29:55,160
that were available to play in
683
00:29:55,180 --> 00:29:57,130
that would let us play in
684
00:29:57,150 --> 00:30:00,030
was the 82 Club, Mother's,
685
00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:02,200
Max's Kansas City, and CBGBs.
686
00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:04,060
That was it.
687
00:30:05,230 --> 00:30:09,180
I think young people
had to go someplace.
688
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,000
They couldn't keep playing
the Top 40 or, or copy music,
689
00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:15,040
and they wanted to do something,
690
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:18,210
and it's just bursting forward.
691
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:21,130
[Gruen]: When Hilly Kristal
opened the bar,
692
00:30:21,150 --> 00:30:24,160
he was actually looking more
for country music and blues,
693
00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:26,060
and when the punk music started,
694
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,200
I think at the beginning,
when Jayne County came,
695
00:30:28,220 --> 00:30:30,100
he was actually called
Wayne County back then,
696
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,120
and said he had a band,
and wanted to play,
697
00:30:33,140 --> 00:30:35,080
and Hilly thought
from the name "Wayne County"
698
00:30:35,100 --> 00:30:37,090
that it sounded like a country band.
699
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:40,180
Jayne County's anything
but a country band,
700
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,020
and so that kind of started the new age,
701
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,040
new wave kind of music
that started playing at CBGBs.
702
00:30:49,030 --> 00:30:51,020
[County]:
When I first played there,
703
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,010
there was dog shit on the floor.
704
00:30:54,030 --> 00:30:58,030
I mean, Hilly had these big huge dogs,
705
00:30:58,050 --> 00:30:59,110
and they'd just shit all over the floor.
706
00:30:59,130 --> 00:31:02,170
At times, you'd be
going up to see the band,
707
00:31:02,190 --> 00:31:04,170
you'd step in dog shit,
708
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:06,110
and you never ate the chili.
709
00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:09,060
If you ate the chili,
you shit all night long.
710
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:10,100
[pot bubbling]
711
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,030
Well, I mean,
nobody died that we know of.
712
00:31:14,050 --> 00:31:16,100
I don't know.
I can't remember.
713
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,100
I think there were burgers there, too,
714
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,140
at one time,
715
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,160
but then, you know,
716
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:24,000
when it started being
a music kind of scene place,
717
00:31:24,020 --> 00:31:26,220
they just focused in on the alcohol.
718
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,020
I think there were still
719
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,100
some of those burgers left.
720
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,020
Really?
721
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,030
Just, like, clinging...
722
00:31:31,050 --> 00:31:32,060
Just leaning in there?
723
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:33,080
Just, like, hanging around, yeah.
724
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:34,070
Just stuck?
725
00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:37,060
Yeah, like after, you know, an eternity.
726
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,020
And the toilets at CBGBs were the worst.
727
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,120
There's not even doors to the stalls.
728
00:31:42,140 --> 00:31:44,120
You'd sit down to take a dump,
729
00:31:44,140 --> 00:31:47,190
people could come in there
and just look at you.
730
00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:50,030
It's a fascinating place, I must say.
731
00:31:50,050 --> 00:31:52,070
It's probably one of
the most interesting places
732
00:31:52,090 --> 00:31:53,030
in New York.
733
00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:54,070
Would you come here again?
734
00:31:54,090 --> 00:31:55,180
No. [laughing]
735
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,090
It doesn't interest me in the least.
736
00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:01,070
[Gruen]: It was kind of like
if your parents go out of town,
737
00:32:01,090 --> 00:32:03,040
and they leave your uncle in charge,
738
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:05,040
and all he wants to do is
have a beer and watch TV.
739
00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:07,150
"You kids can go in the basement
and do whatever you want,"
740
00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:10,040
and if you make any noise
or you break something,
741
00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:11,120
you're out of there,
742
00:32:11,140 --> 00:32:14,040
but if you didn't disturb Hilly,
you could do whatever you want,
743
00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:16,170
and that's why CBGBs
became a great place
744
00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:18,050
where people learned how to play,
745
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:20,000
because you didn't have to be
a good band
746
00:32:20,020 --> 00:32:21,120
to get into CBGBs.
747
00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:22,150
You just had to play.
748
00:32:22,170 --> 00:32:24,000
[♪♪♪]
749
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:25,010
[McNeil]: I mean,
750
00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:28,020
Blondie was one of
the shittiest bands at CBGBs
751
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,130
in the beginning,
752
00:32:29,150 --> 00:32:33,070
and they opened for the Ramones,
like, for two years,
753
00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:35,080
or for, like, at least a year,
754
00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:36,090
every two weeks.
755
00:32:36,110 --> 00:32:39,160
[Debbie Harry]:
We had such a small repertoire
756
00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:43,010
that we had to play every song
at least four times.
757
00:32:43,030 --> 00:32:44,060
[Chris Stein]: Yeah,
we did a lot of...
758
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,040
we did a lot of covers, you know.
759
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:47,020
We used to play
"Heat Wave..."
760
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,120
"Heat Wave," baby, yeah.
761
00:32:48,140 --> 00:32:50,050
Stuff like that.
762
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:52,090
What was great about Blondie
763
00:32:52,110 --> 00:32:56,000
was you got to see them become
this fantastic fuckin' band,
764
00:32:56,020 --> 00:32:57,210
you know, in front of your eyes.
765
00:32:57,230 --> 00:33:00,020
You know, if you kept
going back to CBGBs,
766
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,090
you got to see people start
767
00:33:02,110 --> 00:33:04,130
from where they were arguing onstage
768
00:33:04,150 --> 00:33:05,210
and playing the wrong song
769
00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:08,100
to becoming absolutely
fuckin' brilliant.
770
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,040
[Burke]: I always
make the analogy with CBGB
771
00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:12,230
of being a workshop,
772
00:33:13,010 --> 00:33:15,090
similar to an actor's workshop.
773
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:18,000
The whole thing was about originality.
774
00:33:18,020 --> 00:33:19,130
It was about just being onstage
775
00:33:19,150 --> 00:33:22,210
and performing your songs,
776
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,090
or doing your art
in front of an audience,
777
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:27,170
whether that audience
be five people, 50 people,
778
00:33:27,190 --> 00:33:29,010
or 500 people.
779
00:33:29,030 --> 00:33:30,130
CBGBs was more of a place
780
00:33:30,150 --> 00:33:33,050
where you had a sense of community.
781
00:33:33,070 --> 00:33:36,060
[Burke]: We were influenced
a lot by our peers.
782
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,050
We would cover Ramones songs.
783
00:33:38,070 --> 00:33:40,120
We would cover songs by Television,
784
00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:43,140
and then we would cover,
like, a disco song, you know,
785
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,210
at the same time.
786
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:48,050
Well, I think all the bands
were considered the punk scene,
787
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:51,130
but there was really no one genre
788
00:33:51,150 --> 00:33:53,210
that was punk music.
789
00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:54,190
[Tommy Ramone]: Obviously,
790
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:56,060
if you compare the music of Blondie,
791
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,140
the Dead Boys, and the Ramones,
792
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,480
they're very different, you know,
793
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,030
and I guess that's one of the things
794
00:34:01,050 --> 00:34:02,010
that's really great about it,
795
00:34:02,030 --> 00:34:04,080
because there's all that variety.
796
00:34:05,050 --> 00:34:07,160
[Burke]: It's not what you
classically think of
797
00:34:07,180 --> 00:34:10,060
what, sort of, punk rock is,
798
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,020
but really it's more of an attitude
799
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:12,230
than anything else.
800
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:14,020
It's, "I don't give a shit,"
801
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,020
Fuck you,
I'll do whatever I want."
802
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:17,070
[Gruen]: It was just wild.
803
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:18,070
It was just a wild scene,
804
00:34:18,090 --> 00:34:21,040
but they were all in this one,
you know, place.
805
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:22,110
It was a very small scene,
806
00:34:22,130 --> 00:34:24,170
and it was about to break out
from there...
807
00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:29,140
but the music
wasn't called "punk."
808
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,130
The word "punk" kind of
came from the magazine.
809
00:34:34,090 --> 00:34:35,140
[Harry]: They had posters up,
810
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:38,020
little pieces of paper on the walls,
811
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,100
"Punk is coming,"
"Punk is coming."
812
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:41,560
Yeah, well, that was for those guys,
813
00:34:42,010 --> 00:34:43,150
for the magazine.
814
00:34:43,170 --> 00:34:44,150
- Yes.
- We all...
815
00:34:44,170 --> 00:34:47,000
Well, there was no "punk"
until they said that.
816
00:34:47,020 --> 00:34:48,190
Yeah, I don't know.
817
00:34:48,210 --> 00:34:49,190
Meh...
818
00:34:49,210 --> 00:34:52,080
Stephen MacLean in New York for Flashez,
819
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:53,160
New York, the punk capital of the world,
820
00:34:53,180 --> 00:34:56,120
and I'm in the offices of Punk Magazine
821
00:34:56,140 --> 00:34:58,120
with the editor, John Holmstrom,
822
00:34:58,140 --> 00:35:00,000
and Legs McNeil.
823
00:35:00,020 --> 00:35:01,030
What do you do, Legs?
824
00:35:01,050 --> 00:35:03,090
Well, um, I work as resident punk.
825
00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:05,040
What does that involve?
826
00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:07,190
I usually just hang out and drink a lot.
827
00:35:09,090 --> 00:35:11,040
[McNeil]: We were kind of
white trash kids
828
00:35:11,060 --> 00:35:12,130
from Cheshire, Connecticut...
829
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:14,200
me, John Holmstrom, and Ged Dunn.
830
00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:16,160
John wanted to do this magazine
831
00:35:16,180 --> 00:35:19,070
that combined rock 'n' roll and comics,
832
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:20,220
because he was a cartoonist.
833
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,160
I didn't want to have anything
to do with the magazine,
834
00:35:23,180 --> 00:35:25,160
but he said, "Well, if we do a magazine,
835
00:35:25,180 --> 00:35:28,000
people will buy us drinks
and want to hang out with us,"
836
00:35:28,020 --> 00:35:29,030
and I thought, "Oh, okay," you know?
837
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:32,110
So I'm like, "Well, what do
I call a humor magazine
838
00:35:32,130 --> 00:35:35,010
about punk rock and fashion?"
839
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:36,080
So I pulled something out of my head.
840
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:38,050
I had just seen the New York Dolls
841
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:41,040
do a song called "Teenage News,"
842
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:43,150
and I suggested that.
843
00:35:43,170 --> 00:35:46,170
And, um, I thought
that was a stupid idea.
844
00:35:46,190 --> 00:35:48,190
He said, "Well, what
would you call it?"
845
00:35:48,210 --> 00:35:50,100
and I said, "Punk,"
846
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,200
because that's what everyone
had called me my entire life.
847
00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:55,210
When I said it, I thought
it was funny, you know?
848
00:35:55,230 --> 00:35:57,200
We were trying to be funny.
849
00:35:57,220 --> 00:35:58,190
[police sirens wail]
850
00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:00,200
You know, it was also
on television shows.
851
00:36:00,220 --> 00:36:03,090
They couldn't say,
"You fucking asshole," you know?
852
00:36:03,110 --> 00:36:05,090
You had to say, "You punk,
you dirty punk,"
853
00:36:05,110 --> 00:36:06,160
and Clint Eastwood used it.
854
00:36:06,180 --> 00:36:07,120
We were punks.
855
00:36:07,140 --> 00:36:09,110
We were not tough guys, you know?
856
00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:11,140
We were basically young hippies
857
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,170
that were tired of the hippie movement,
858
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:16,060
and John said, "I'll be the editor,"
859
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,130
and Ged said, "I'll be the publisher,"
860
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:18,180
and they said,
"What are you going to do?"
861
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,090
and John said, "You can be
the resident punk, ha ha ha."
862
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:23,230
[MacLean]: These particular
delicate delinquents,
863
00:36:24,010 --> 00:36:25,030
with no real financial backing,
864
00:36:25,050 --> 00:36:27,230
started Punk magazine a year ago.
865
00:36:28,010 --> 00:36:29,170
Star reporter is Legs McNeil,
866
00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:32,140
who usually makes sure
he asks the dumbest questions,
867
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,030
because Punk, he says,
is anti-intellectual.
868
00:36:35,050 --> 00:36:37,010
[McNeil]: And that's what
we thought Punk was.
869
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:38,100
Like, let's, you know,
870
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,050
let's break all the rules,
871
00:36:40,070 --> 00:36:41,100
but, you know, have some intelligence
872
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,050
and some wit and some humor, you know,
873
00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:45,150
because the '60s,
874
00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:48,060
everything was so fuckin' tedious.
875
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,060
It was kind of like,
let's have some fun, you know?
876
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,060
We never have any money.
877
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,020
I don't know how
we bring out each issue.
878
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,070
- I don't know how we live.
- Right.
879
00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:59,030
I really don't, you know,
we don't eat anything.
880
00:36:59,050 --> 00:37:00,100
We don't get salaries.
We don't get money.
881
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:01,140
Yeah, no one here is on salary.
882
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,080
Yeah, right.
We just get over it.
883
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:04,180
I mean, we don't know
how we, you know...
884
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,200
I make money, you know,
betting on pinball.
885
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:09,070
You know, I was a loser,
886
00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:13,070
and it was like,
"Why not start a magazine?
887
00:37:13,090 --> 00:37:15,100
We don't have anything
to lose," you know?
888
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,180
We basically were all
going to go to jail
889
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,140
if we didn't find something
worthwhile to do, you know?
890
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,100
But then I found out
that "punk" is a prison term
891
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,230
for young boys who turn tricks.
892
00:37:29,010 --> 00:37:30,000
A punk, you know,
893
00:37:30,020 --> 00:37:32,030
is someone who gets
fucked in the ass in jail.
894
00:37:32,050 --> 00:37:33,150
So I didn't want to be associated
895
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:35,150
with this punk music thing, you know?
896
00:37:35,170 --> 00:37:37,120
I said, "Yeah, I'm a musician,
897
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:40,080
but I don't know anything
about this punk thing."
898
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:42,050
Like, one time I was
in the bathroom, you know,
899
00:37:42,070 --> 00:37:43,120
and I had my jacket on,
900
00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:45,200
and someone came up to me
and said, "Are you a punk?"
901
00:37:45,220 --> 00:37:46,200
you know, and I said,
902
00:37:46,220 --> 00:37:48,080
"What the fuck do you want?"
you know.
903
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:50,050
Am I a punk, you know?
904
00:37:50,070 --> 00:37:52,120
Bands hated that word.
905
00:37:52,140 --> 00:37:55,160
Nobody wanted to be called a punk band.
906
00:37:55,180 --> 00:37:57,200
[County]: They didn't like
being called punk.
907
00:37:57,220 --> 00:37:59,080
They liked being called
rock 'n' roll bands.
908
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:01,210
I remember the Ramones saying,
"We're not a punk band.
909
00:38:01,230 --> 00:38:02,200
We're a rock 'n' roll band."
910
00:38:02,220 --> 00:38:06,010
Um, it's rock 'n' roll, stripped down.
911
00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:08,080
[County]:
But the punk label stuck,
912
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:11,130
and eventually people
had to just accept that.
913
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:13,010
Tell me about punk rock,
914
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:14,180
because I have heard,
915
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,170
I've read all kinds of reviews...
916
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:17,000
Well, I'll tell you about punk rock.
917
00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:21,210
"Punk rock" is a word
used by dilettantes...
918
00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:23,040
- Okay.
- And, uh...
919
00:38:23,060 --> 00:38:25,200
heartless manipulators.
920
00:38:25,220 --> 00:38:27,050
You're acting against that label.
921
00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:28,090
You don't like the label.
922
00:38:28,110 --> 00:38:30,140
I don't like to hear it
come out of someone's mouth.
923
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,000
Where do you like
to hear it come out of?
924
00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:36,150
[laughter]
925
00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:39,140
What we were trying to do
with Punk Magazine
926
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,220
was redefine rock 'n' roll as punk rock,
927
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:44,230
the original spirit,
928
00:38:45,010 --> 00:38:47,060
the rebellious spirit
of the '50s, you know?
929
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,100
It wasn't safe.
930
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,020
It wasn't what your mother listened to.
931
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,130
It wasn't even what
your big brother listened to.
932
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:55,120
We wanted to wipe all that out
and start over again.
933
00:38:55,140 --> 00:38:58,010
We were trying to provoke thought
934
00:38:58,030 --> 00:39:01,220
by, like, saying something
you wouldn't normally see,
935
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,100
so we'd end up being
very politically incorrect,
936
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:06,280
but it was all for a purpose.
937
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,060
It was kind of to get people
out of this comfort zone.
938
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,060
Plus, there were so many
weirdos, you know,
939
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,130
you thought, like,
940
00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:17,020
"These people need some way to be,
941
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,170
some identity too, you know?"
942
00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:20,140
and I think that's what punk was about,
943
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,020
making more options
944
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,060
to be into what you wanted to do,
945
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,130
and I think that
946
00:39:25,150 --> 00:39:29,030
that's what the great success
of this whole movement was.
947
00:39:29,050 --> 00:39:30,100
It liberated people
948
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,110
to be whoever the fuck
they wanted to be.
949
00:39:33,130 --> 00:39:36,210
[♪♪♪]
950
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:38,030
The Dead Boys are the Dead Boys,
951
00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:40,070
Dictators are Dictators,
952
00:39:40,090 --> 00:39:42,070
the Ramones are the Ramones,
and they're all fuckin' great.
953
00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:43,100
You call them punk
954
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,060
because you got nothing else
to say about them,
955
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,120
no other way to link them,
956
00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:49,060
but it's, like, the heartbeat
that links them, you know?
957
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:55,020
There ain't no pyrotechnics,
no phony showmanship,
958
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:56,280
just pure rock 'n' roll energy,
959
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,040
pure guts, pure stamina.
960
00:39:58,060 --> 00:40:00,040
[♪♪♪]
961
00:40:03,060 --> 00:40:05,100
All bands have an arc.
962
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,160
Like all things in nature,
963
00:40:07,180 --> 00:40:09,110
something is conceived,
964
00:40:09,130 --> 00:40:12,080
it's born, it grows,
965
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,210
it's nourished, it flowers,
966
00:40:14,230 --> 00:40:16,070
it produces fruit,
967
00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:18,070
it starts to age,
968
00:40:18,090 --> 00:40:20,030
it withers,
969
00:40:20,050 --> 00:40:22,110
it decays, it dies...
970
00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:24,050
That's nature.
971
00:40:24,070 --> 00:40:26,200
Bands are exactly the same way.
972
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:34,110
There were problems
with the MC5's political...
973
00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:36,100
well...
974
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,160
oh, everything.
975
00:40:37,180 --> 00:40:39,160
The language, the thought,
976
00:40:39,180 --> 00:40:43,030
but "Kick Out the Jams, Motherfuckers"
977
00:40:43,050 --> 00:40:44,170
was a trademark song,
978
00:40:44,190 --> 00:40:49,110
and this was not a good idea
to put on a record,
979
00:40:49,130 --> 00:40:53,080
because people were frightened
about dirty words.
980
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:54,150
Well, yeah, it's hard to imagine
981
00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:58,150
that a band would be
banned from existence
982
00:40:58,170 --> 00:40:59,200
for saying "motherfucker."
983
00:40:59,220 --> 00:41:04,150
I mean, you almost have to say
"motherfucker" to start now.
984
00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:07,040
It was just a wonderful,
985
00:41:07,060 --> 00:41:08,170
flexible,
986
00:41:08,190 --> 00:41:12,040
vibrant expression.
987
00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:13,090
The liner notes,
988
00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:16,000
which John wrote
in Cambridge, Massachusetts,
989
00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:20,170
declared that a mantra of the band,
990
00:41:20,190 --> 00:41:21,230
a goal of the band, was...
991
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,090
Total assault on the culture
by any means necessary,
992
00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:28,060
including rock 'n' roll, dope,
and fucking in the streets.
993
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,210
[laughing]
"This is our platform,"
994
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:32,120
and I thought,
995
00:41:32,140 --> 00:41:35,020
"These guys are going
to get busted," you know?
996
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,220
So stores wouldn't carry it.
997
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,120
The biggest chain in the Midwest,
998
00:41:42,140 --> 00:41:43,460
or certainly in the Detroit area,
999
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,130
called Hudson's,
1000
00:41:45,150 --> 00:41:47,170
refused to carry their record
1001
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:50,110
for that reason and a variety of others,
1002
00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:53,210
so the MC5 took an ad out
1003
00:41:53,230 --> 00:41:57,050
in a local underground newspaper,
1004
00:41:57,070 --> 00:42:00,010
and it said, "Fuck Hudson's!"
1005
00:42:00,030 --> 00:42:01,100
with the Elektra logo.
1006
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,160
So Hudson's was not amused,
1007
00:42:04,180 --> 00:42:08,170
and threw all the Judy Collins,
and folk records,
1008
00:42:08,190 --> 00:42:11,110
anything to do with Elektra.
1009
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:14,130
Elektra fired the band
within weeks of that.
1010
00:42:14,150 --> 00:42:16,220
They thought they were out of control.
1011
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:20,220
[crowd cheering]
1012
00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:25,160
I worked on the MC5
1013
00:42:25,180 --> 00:42:27,120
from the time I was...
1014
00:42:27,140 --> 00:42:30,110
14 years old.
1015
00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:34,180
By the time I was 24,
the band had broke up.
1016
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,220
My entire life
was poured into that band,
1017
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,060
and one day I woke up,
and it was all gone.
1018
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:42,140
It had all gone away,
1019
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,040
and, uh, I went into a depression.
1020
00:42:48,170 --> 00:42:52,100
At a certain point, for me personally,
1021
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,060
the fantastically effective
1022
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,140
pain-killing properties
of whisky and heroin
1023
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,060
entered the picture,
1024
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,220
and it became easier for me
1025
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,190
to just relieve myself of all that pain
1026
00:43:07,210 --> 00:43:14,050
than it was to get out there
and slug it out another day.
1027
00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:21,190
Well, you know, like a lot of people
1028
00:43:21,210 --> 00:43:25,040
who are going to go into the art life,
1029
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:28,070
I liked to get a little high
when I started.
1030
00:43:28,090 --> 00:43:29,080
I think everybody did.
1031
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,040
I didn't do drugs.
1032
00:43:31,060 --> 00:43:32,110
I mean, I didn't take pictures of drugs.
1033
00:43:32,130 --> 00:43:33,080
I did drugs,
1034
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:34,160
but I didn't take pictures of drugs.
1035
00:43:34,180 --> 00:43:40,040
The drugs in the early days
was mostly marijuana.
1036
00:43:40,060 --> 00:43:41,080
People were drinking.
1037
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:42,120
Sometimes they would take cocaine
1038
00:43:42,140 --> 00:43:44,200
to keep drinking longer,
1039
00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:47,050
but it wasn't until later in the '70s
1040
00:43:47,070 --> 00:43:51,140
that people started, you know,
finding out about heroin.
1041
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,210
And all of a sudden,
1042
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:55,020
at least in our area,
1043
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,210
there were...
hard drugs everywhere.
1044
00:44:00,230 --> 00:44:02,210
[Richard Nixon]: America's
public enemy number one
1045
00:44:02,230 --> 00:44:05,050
in the United States
1046
00:44:05,070 --> 00:44:07,010
is drug abuse.
1047
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:09,010
It is essential for the American people
1048
00:44:09,030 --> 00:44:11,060
to be alerted of this danger,
1049
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:14,200
to recognize that it is
a danger that will not pass
1050
00:44:14,220 --> 00:44:16,200
with the passing of the war in Vietnam,
1051
00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:20,000
which has brought
to our attention the fact
1052
00:44:20,020 --> 00:44:22,210
that a number of young Americans
have become addicts
1053
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:24,200
as they serve abroad.
1054
00:44:24,220 --> 00:44:27,160
[McNeil]: You know, Nixon
went after pot and LSD,
1055
00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:30,060
so the only other drug was heroin.
1056
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,100
You know, everyone
returning from Vietnam
1057
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:33,170
came back with heroin habits,
1058
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:35,090
you know, really bad ones,
1059
00:44:35,110 --> 00:44:37,220
and there was dope everywhere.
1060
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,030
Everyone was stoned on something.
1061
00:44:40,050 --> 00:44:42,140
It was either downs,
or they were on speed.
1062
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:44,170
[sighing]
1063
00:44:44,190 --> 00:44:46,060
It was like, anything goes.
1064
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,080
PCP, you know,
1065
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:51,140
horse and hog tranquilizers...
1066
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,090
[Pop]: Coke, heroin,
1067
00:44:54,110 --> 00:44:56,020
I was taking LSD.
1068
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,210
Methamphetamines I tried a couple times,
1069
00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:02,170
but it was just...
I felt so good for no reason.
1070
00:45:02,190 --> 00:45:06,010
I had the same experience with MDMA.
1071
00:45:06,030 --> 00:45:09,090
I was just...
I was on the love train.
1072
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:10,140
[County]: I loved it
1073
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,190
when the Ramones did "Carbona Not Glue,"
1074
00:45:12,210 --> 00:45:14,180
because Carbona,
1075
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,140
I used to have a friend called Carbona,
1076
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,150
and his drug was Carbona rug cleaner,
1077
00:45:17,170 --> 00:45:20,000
and people would take
Carbona rug cleaner,
1078
00:45:20,020 --> 00:45:22,220
and they'd put it on a rag,
and... sniff it,
1079
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,190
and it gets you whacked out.
1080
00:45:24,210 --> 00:45:27,120
I remember Dee Dee
coming into the deejay booth
1081
00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:29,060
where I used to deejay at Max's.
1082
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,000
He came into the deejay booth
quite often,
1083
00:45:32,020 --> 00:45:32,230
stoned.
1084
00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:35,070
Because there was always
nothing else to do
1085
00:45:35,090 --> 00:45:37,070
but just sniff glue.
1086
00:45:37,090 --> 00:45:40,140
We've got something better to do now.
1087
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,020
Man, what do you want me to say?
1088
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,150
I want all the kids to go
drink ammonia or something?
1089
00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:49,000
So everything,
1090
00:45:49,020 --> 00:45:51,020
I mean, every drug
known to man, I think,
1091
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,000
everyone was doing, you know?
1092
00:45:53,020 --> 00:45:55,230
And that kind of started
bringing the scene down
1093
00:45:56,010 --> 00:45:56,210
in a way, you know?
1094
00:45:56,230 --> 00:45:58,150
People on drugs are a lot less creative
1095
00:45:58,170 --> 00:46:00,060
than people who are awake.
1096
00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:05,110
[Pop]: And eventually
everybody was out of gas,
1097
00:46:05,130 --> 00:46:07,160
especially me,
1098
00:46:07,180 --> 00:46:11,170
and it did create a mess for everybody,
1099
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:13,190
and things got...
1100
00:46:13,210 --> 00:46:16,010
things got weirder and weirder.
1101
00:46:22,110 --> 00:46:26,170
But, you see, this is how...
1102
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:30,150
you know, it kind of upsets me in a way,
1103
00:46:30,170 --> 00:46:32,070
but they all, you know...
1104
00:46:32,090 --> 00:46:35,160
the New York Dolls was like
being at a horse race.
1105
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,230
We were running so ahead of the pack...
1106
00:46:41,010 --> 00:46:42,160
but unfortunately,
1107
00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:44,080
we fell down, and we broke our legs,
1108
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:48,040
and everybody else
that was behind us, you know,
1109
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:50,000
just came over and took over,
1110
00:46:50,020 --> 00:46:52,170
and they got to the finishing line,
1111
00:46:52,190 --> 00:46:54,010
and we never did.
1112
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:58,040
[Gruen]:
Well, the New York Dolls
1113
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:00,160
were in the process of breaking up.
1114
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:02,160
Their management had dropped them,
1115
00:47:02,180 --> 00:47:04,160
two of the guys were junkies,
1116
00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:07,030
one was such an alcoholic
that he was barely functional,
1117
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:09,110
but it was a losing cause.
1118
00:47:11,230 --> 00:47:14,030
[Sylvain]: And one day,
1119
00:47:14,050 --> 00:47:18,030
I'm walking right outside
of the Chelsea Hotel,
1120
00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:21,110
and who do I see coming out
is Malcolm McLaren.
1121
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:28,180
I had met Malcolm McLaren
years before, in 1971,
1122
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:29,190
him and Vivienne Westwood,
1123
00:47:29,210 --> 00:47:32,010
at a...
1124
00:47:32,030 --> 00:47:35,050
at what they call
an international boutique show,
1125
00:47:35,070 --> 00:47:38,220
and their store was called
"Let It Rock,"
1126
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,190
and he says, "What's, you know,
1127
00:47:40,210 --> 00:47:42,220
why are you so sad-looking?"
or whatever,
1128
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,110
and I told him our woes,
1129
00:47:44,130 --> 00:47:48,050
because the band was
about to break up, and...
1130
00:47:48,070 --> 00:47:52,220
so I confide in him
what's been going on and stuff,
1131
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,190
and he says, "Oh,
I would love to help you.
1132
00:47:54,210 --> 00:47:56,100
I love the New York Dolls,"
1133
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,190
you know, "Me and Viv, we love them,"
1134
00:47:58,210 --> 00:48:00,060
and blah, blah, blah,
1135
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,230
and so we started hanging out together.
1136
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:05,410
[Gruen]: And Malcolm,
to his credit,
1137
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,030
actually helped them a lot
1138
00:48:08,050 --> 00:48:09,150
by getting them into rehab programs,
1139
00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:11,030
got Johnny and Jerry cleaned up,
1140
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:13,030
got Arthur sober for...
1141
00:48:13,050 --> 00:48:15,230
long enough to wear his clothes onstage.
1142
00:48:16,010 --> 00:48:19,000
Malcolm also saw the styles,
1143
00:48:19,020 --> 00:48:21,060
and the attitudes of the people at CBGBs
1144
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,030
coming to see the different bands.
1145
00:48:23,050 --> 00:48:25,150
He was particularly impressed
by Richard Hell.
1146
00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:29,020
When he saw Richard show up
with a t-shirt, I think,
1147
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,190
that had been safety-pinned together,
1148
00:48:30,210 --> 00:48:32,070
had been cut apart or ripped apart,
1149
00:48:32,090 --> 00:48:35,030
and put back together with safety pins,
1150
00:48:35,050 --> 00:48:36,080
and before you knew it,
1151
00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:38,020
him and Vivienne were selling clothes
1152
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,020
that were safety-pinned together.
1153
00:48:43,130 --> 00:48:45,000
[Sylvain]: And then, one day,
I think it was Johnny,
1154
00:48:45,020 --> 00:48:47,160
he goes, like, you know, "Hey, Malcolm,
1155
00:48:47,180 --> 00:48:50,040
you think Vivienne can get me
a pair of red shoes,
1156
00:48:50,060 --> 00:48:52,230
because, you know,
me and David wrote this song,
1157
00:48:53,010 --> 00:48:55,010
it's called "Red Patent Leather,"
1158
00:48:55,030 --> 00:48:58,050
and that kind of got things
kicked off, you know,
1159
00:48:58,070 --> 00:48:59,120
and he says, "Of course she can,"
1160
00:48:59,140 --> 00:49:00,230
and "I'll call her up,"
1161
00:49:01,010 --> 00:49:03,230
and then, you know,
Jerry says, "Wait a minute.
1162
00:49:04,010 --> 00:49:05,230
Hey, can she get me one too?"
1163
00:49:06,010 --> 00:49:08,210
you know, and then Arthur,
then David, then myself,
1164
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:09,230
and we were all, like,
1165
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:11,070
"Okay, let's all get
red shoes."
1166
00:49:11,090 --> 00:49:13,150
"Okay, great."
"Let's get red pants too."
1167
00:49:13,170 --> 00:49:14,190
"Okay, let's get 'em."
1168
00:49:14,210 --> 00:49:17,040
"Okay, let's get
everything red."
1169
00:49:17,060 --> 00:49:20,020
Today, music is being sold more and more
1170
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,040
not by the fact that someone can sing,
1171
00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:25,030
but by very much the nature
of the color of his socks.
1172
00:49:25,050 --> 00:49:26,080
[Gruen]: And then Malcolm,
1173
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:28,050
being the provocateur that he is,
1174
00:49:28,070 --> 00:49:30,050
decided that instead of
releasing a press release
1175
00:49:30,070 --> 00:49:31,090
to announce their show,
1176
00:49:31,110 --> 00:49:33,000
he was going to release a manifesto,
1177
00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:34,030
and he was going to talk about
1178
00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:36,130
how they're no longer
with their puppet management.
1179
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:37,170
It was just, you know,
1180
00:49:37,190 --> 00:49:41,220
kind of a play on the Chinese
communists at the time,
1181
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,050
and that they were, you know,
the Red Guard.
1182
00:49:44,070 --> 00:49:47,050
Like, Malcolm knew that
playing on the makeup
1183
00:49:47,070 --> 00:49:48,060
and flamboyant clothing
1184
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,080
that they were being compared
to homosexuals,
1185
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:52,010
and that was a very upsetting thing,
1186
00:49:52,030 --> 00:49:54,010
a very controversial thing in America,
1187
00:49:54,030 --> 00:49:55,170
to be compared to a homosexual,
1188
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:58,170
and he felt that if they were
compared to communists,
1189
00:49:58,190 --> 00:50:00,220
that's what really
riles people up in America.
1190
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,010
If you want to really
get an American angry,
1191
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:04,100
you talk about communism.
1192
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,060
Well, that might have worked,
1193
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,100
except for the fact that
nobody thought that this band
1194
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,190
that looked like a bunch of pussies
1195
00:50:09,210 --> 00:50:11,180
who happened to have a communist flag
1196
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,050
was in any way political,
1197
00:50:13,070 --> 00:50:16,020
and that this was not a communist threat
1198
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,190
from these kids
from the Lower East Side.
1199
00:50:20,130 --> 00:50:22,120
He dressed them in red patent leather.
1200
00:50:22,140 --> 00:50:24,070
I mean, what's more hokey
than that, you know?
1201
00:50:24,090 --> 00:50:26,110
"Oh, now we're communists?"
"Oh, great."
1202
00:50:26,130 --> 00:50:28,010
It was silly.
1203
00:50:28,030 --> 00:50:29,180
It was stupid.
1204
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:34,070
It was probably the kamikaze
1205
00:50:34,090 --> 00:50:37,180
that we should've never done.
1206
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,010
And it kind of petered out,
1207
00:50:39,030 --> 00:50:39,220
because Johnny and Jerry
1208
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,020
were really deep into their drug habits,
1209
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,100
Arthur couldn't stop drinking,
1210
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,120
and they basically
1211
00:50:45,140 --> 00:50:47,220
couldn't get out of their hotel
in Florida,
1212
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,120
and Johnny and Jerry said
1213
00:50:49,140 --> 00:50:51,070
they were going
back to New York to get drugs,
1214
00:50:51,090 --> 00:50:52,150
and David told them
1215
00:50:52,170 --> 00:50:54,020
if they went back to New York
to get drugs,
1216
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,030
the band was over,
1217
00:50:55,050 --> 00:50:57,030
that if drugs were
more important than the band,
1218
00:50:57,050 --> 00:50:59,110
he would take that as them quitting,
1219
00:50:59,130 --> 00:51:01,140
and so they went
back to New York to get drugs,
1220
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:02,200
and the band was over.
1221
00:51:13,220 --> 00:51:16,020
I'd always kind of been intrigued
1222
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,040
with the criminal underworld.
1223
00:51:18,060 --> 00:51:20,230
I'd known guys from school,
1224
00:51:21,010 --> 00:51:23,070
and being in bands,
1225
00:51:23,090 --> 00:51:27,040
we were always on the fringe
of the criminal underworld,
1226
00:51:27,060 --> 00:51:29,000
and, um...
1227
00:51:29,020 --> 00:51:32,200
I just felt like...
1228
00:51:32,220 --> 00:51:34,180
fuck 'em, you know?
1229
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,180
I'm going to do crime.
1230
00:51:38,140 --> 00:51:39,160
I started a band
1231
00:51:39,180 --> 00:51:44,080
that I thought could pick up
where the MC5 left off,
1232
00:51:44,100 --> 00:51:47,120
and I thought I would finance the band
1233
00:51:47,140 --> 00:51:48,130
by selling drugs.
1234
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:53,000
I wasn't making great decisions
in those days,
1235
00:51:53,020 --> 00:51:56,150
and I was completely delusional.
1236
00:51:56,170 --> 00:51:58,030
I'm not a killer.
1237
00:51:58,050 --> 00:51:59,160
I'm not a gangster.
1238
00:51:59,180 --> 00:52:00,200
I'm a guitar player,
1239
00:52:00,220 --> 00:52:02,230
I'm an artist,
1240
00:52:03,010 --> 00:52:04,190
but here I am carrying a gun
1241
00:52:04,210 --> 00:52:07,070
and ripping people off,
1242
00:52:07,090 --> 00:52:10,030
and selling drugs and TVs,
1243
00:52:10,050 --> 00:52:12,010
and I think I'm a hustler,
1244
00:52:12,030 --> 00:52:14,100
and of course, I'm way out of my league,
1245
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:19,000
and Detroit was a very,
very tough place in those days,
1246
00:52:19,020 --> 00:52:21,170
in the 1970s, you know?
1247
00:52:21,190 --> 00:52:23,120
The auto industry was gone.
1248
00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:26,080
Detroit had become
the murder capital of the world.
1249
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,050
We had 800 murders a year in Detroit,
1250
00:52:29,070 --> 00:52:32,190
and I was right in the thick
of the whole thing...
1251
00:52:34,030 --> 00:52:38,120
...and was arrested by the DEA,
1252
00:52:38,140 --> 00:52:41,170
the federal government's drug police,
1253
00:52:41,190 --> 00:52:46,170
and ultimately sentenced
to four years in federal prison.
1254
00:52:54,170 --> 00:52:58,170
Punk really was dying a slow death
1255
00:52:58,190 --> 00:53:00,190
throughout its existence in the '70s,
1256
00:53:00,210 --> 00:53:03,170
and the first Ramones record
would come out,
1257
00:53:03,190 --> 00:53:05,020
and there'd be no hit,
1258
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,140
and the second would come out.
1259
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:07,150
There's no hit.
1260
00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:10,110
Blondie would get signed
and nobody would notice,
1261
00:53:10,130 --> 00:53:14,070
and just...
one record after another,
1262
00:53:14,090 --> 00:53:16,230
punk rock went nowhere in the States.
1263
00:53:18,210 --> 00:53:21,220
[McNeil]: Well, at the times,
none of this stuff sold,
1264
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,220
but when you're an 18-year-old,
19-year-old kid,
1265
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,190
you're not thinking,
"Wow, did this sell or not?
1266
00:53:27,210 --> 00:53:28,200
Is he a big success?"
1267
00:53:28,220 --> 00:53:31,060
You just think, "This is
great fuckin' music."
1268
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,100
My question was,
why isn't this stuff played?
1269
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,100
It's fuckin' great.
1270
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,190
[Ramone]: Well, yeah,
nobody wanted to book us
1271
00:53:40,210 --> 00:53:42,070
outside of New York.
1272
00:53:42,090 --> 00:53:44,130
You know, they didn't understand it.
1273
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:47,150
You've got to remember, disco was big,
1274
00:53:47,170 --> 00:53:50,220
stadium rock was big at the time,
1275
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,220
but the term "punk"
1276
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,230
and the leather jackets
1277
00:53:56,010 --> 00:53:57,180
and Blitzkrieg Bop
1278
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,080
probably turned a lot of people off.
1279
00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:01,070
It is very dangerous.
1280
00:54:01,090 --> 00:54:04,210
It could lead to fascism.
1281
00:54:06,010 --> 00:54:08,190
[Ramone]: The deejays
didn't want to play it.
1282
00:54:08,210 --> 00:54:11,170
They would go, "What the hell
is this?" you know?
1283
00:54:11,190 --> 00:54:14,040
Yeah, the Ramones
were way ahead of themselves.
1284
00:54:14,060 --> 00:54:16,110
America wasn't ready for that sound yet.
1285
00:54:16,130 --> 00:54:19,070
[McNeil]: I mean,
they could play CBGBs,
1286
00:54:19,090 --> 00:54:20,160
or Max's Kansas City,
1287
00:54:20,180 --> 00:54:22,100
or Mother's, or My Father's Place,
1288
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:23,110
but outside of that,
1289
00:54:23,130 --> 00:54:27,000
they really couldn't break
beyond that circuit.
1290
00:54:28,060 --> 00:54:30,080
So Linda Stein said to Danny,
1291
00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:34,080
"I think we should, you know,
try to get the Ramones...
1292
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:36,110
some exposure in England,"
1293
00:54:36,130 --> 00:54:38,070
and I was like, "Who the fuck cares?
1294
00:54:38,090 --> 00:54:39,090
England sucks."
1295
00:54:41,180 --> 00:54:43,050
[Sylvain]: Well,
the New York Dolls broke up,
1296
00:54:43,070 --> 00:54:45,120
and I remember Malcolm,
1297
00:54:45,140 --> 00:54:47,160
he's telling me, "Listen, don't worry.
1298
00:54:47,180 --> 00:54:50,060
There's so many kids
in front of my wife's shop,
1299
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:51,090
who are working there,
1300
00:54:51,110 --> 00:54:52,120
or hang out there, and stuff,
1301
00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:54,040
we'll put a band together for you.
1302
00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:56,000
You come to England," and all that,
1303
00:54:56,020 --> 00:54:56,210
and I said, "Okay,"
1304
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:58,200
but he's telling me, "Come to England.
1305
00:54:58,220 --> 00:55:00,010
This is your band,"
1306
00:55:00,030 --> 00:55:02,160
and he said to me, "Look,
I'm going to send you a ticket,
1307
00:55:02,180 --> 00:55:04,110
and you come over there," or whatever.
1308
00:55:04,130 --> 00:55:06,160
Well, guess what?
1309
00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:08,000
What are...
1310
00:55:08,020 --> 00:55:10,180
2019 now, it is?
1311
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,100
And yet I'm still waiting
for that plane ticket.
1312
00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:17,190
What a shame.
1313
00:55:19,060 --> 00:55:22,220
[♪♪♪]
1314
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:33,220
[♪♪♪]